4x4 and 4x8 Freeze Rule
01/24/2018 10:09:08 AM
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Last year there was a bunch of discussion on enforcing a "Freeze Rule" in the 4x4 and 4x8. I went to the FACA officials training in Daytona and discussed it with several officials through the year. Nobody had the same interpretation of the rule. And as fate would have it, my team was negatively affected at the state meet by the confusion. I brought this up for discussion at my local officials meeting this week and was told it will need to be further discussed at the central Florida meeting coming up this weekend (since they are the ones who will likely be handling it at state). Unfortunately I cannot go to every meeting, so I would like to open this topic up for discussion on here. 1. Can someone quote this rule and where it is listed in a NFHS or FHSAA manual?
Last year there was a bunch of discussion on enforcing a "Freeze Rule" in the 4x4 and 4x8. I went to the FACA officials training in Daytona and discussed it with several officials through the year. Nobody had the same interpretation of the rule. And as fate would have it, my team was negatively affected at the state meet by the confusion. I brought this up for discussion at my local officials meeting this week and was told it will need to be further discussed at the central Florida meeting coming up this weekend (since they are the ones who will likely be handling it at state). Unfortunately I cannot go to every meeting, so I would like to open this topic up for discussion on here.

1. Can someone quote this rule and where it is listed in a NFHS or FHSAA manual?
01/24/2018 11:39:46 AM
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@LFCSumner3 I am not familiar with the term "Freeze rule". What is that? Reps from both Elite and Half Mile will be at the Central FL meeting. I would be happy to bring up the question and ask for you. Chris Kail Elite TIming
@LFCSumner3

I am not familiar with the term "Freeze rule". What is that? Reps from both Elite and Half Mile will be at the Central FL meeting. I would be happy to bring up the question and ask for you.

Chris Kail
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01/24/2018 11:58:33 AM
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@ckailjr For all of the 4x8 exchanges and only the 2nd and 3rd exchange for the 4x4, athletes were lined up in the order their team was in on the back stretch. The outgoing runner was supposed to be "Frozen" based on the order they were lined up in. Problems came because different people interepted where the freeze starts. State officials did it when the lead runner hit the 200m to go mark. Some during the year did it randomly as the majority was on the backstretch. Also, some officials allowed teams to shift down as the inner lanes cleared out. Which to me is unfair if one team cannot move because of when they come in and another can because they come in later.
@ckailjr For all of the 4x8 exchanges and only the 2nd and 3rd exchange for the 4x4, athletes were lined up in the order their team was in on the back stretch. The outgoing runner was supposed to be "Frozen" based on the order they were lined up in.

Problems came because different people interepted where the freeze starts. State officials did it when the lead runner hit the 200m to go mark. Some during the year did it randomly as the majority was on the backstretch.

Also, some officials allowed teams to shift down as the inner lanes cleared out. Which to me is unfair if one team cannot move because of when they come in and another can because they come in later.
01/24/2018 12:21:32 PM
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@LFCSumner3 I will be at the clinic and be sure to voice my approval for any ruling that goes against Sumner.
@LFCSumner3 I will be at the clinic and be sure to voice my approval for any ruling that goes against Sumner.
01/24/2018 12:28:27 PM
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GRU has a freeze ray, but I've never heard of a freeze rule. Lol What you are describing is the officials placement for exchanges. It should be based on the entry to the final 100m of each leg. It is designed to keep athletes from cutting each other off at the exchange.
GRU has a freeze ray, but I've never heard of a freeze rule. Lol

What you are describing is the officials placement for exchanges. It should be based on the entry to the final 100m of each leg. It is designed to keep athletes from cutting each other off at the exchange.
01/24/2018 12:48:48 PM
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@LFCSumner3 Shifting positions and changing order at exchange zone line are different matters. This was posted on the fhsaa webpage last year. "... The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified. In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs. "
@LFCSumner3 Shifting positions and changing order at exchange zone line are different matters. This was posted on the fhsaa webpage last year.

"...
The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified.

In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs.
"
01/24/2018 1:19:44 PM
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[quote=jlafollette]@LFCSumner3 Shifting positions and changing order at exchange zone line are different matters. This was posted on the fhsaa webpage last year. "... The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified. In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs. "[/quote] @jlafollette The "in simple language" portion added in language not in the first paragraph. "They would be instructed to shuffle positions only once." The first paragraph does not state how many times the outgoing runners may shuffle nor the amount of times they would be told to do so. The "in simple language" portion also implies that out going runners can shuffle once AS the runner comes off the turn. I think the Freeze rule is there to not allow anymore shuffling of positions once the first place incoming athlete completes the final turn. This rule is placing the sole responsibility of getting the order correct on the officials ("as instructed by an official"). Which means in a tight race of 3-4 teams, it is the effectiveness of the official that will determine the outcome of the race. Imagine two teams with identical uniforms....one in 1st place and the other in a distant 7th. The official mistakenly instructs the 7th place team to take first position (and the 1st place team to take the 7th position). That could cost a team the championship.
jlafollette wrote:
@LFCSumner3 Shifting positions and changing order at exchange zone line are different matters. This was posted on the fhsaa webpage last year.

"...
The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified.

In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs.
"


@jlafollette

The "in simple language" portion added in language not in the first paragraph. "They would be instructed to shuffle positions only once." The first paragraph does not state how many times the outgoing runners may shuffle nor the amount of times they would be told to do so.

The "in simple language" portion also implies that out going runners can shuffle once AS the runner comes off the turn. I think the Freeze rule is there to not allow anymore shuffling of positions once the first place incoming athlete completes the final turn.

This rule is placing the sole responsibility of getting the order correct on the officials ("as instructed by an official"). Which means in a tight race of 3-4 teams, it is the effectiveness of the official that will determine the outcome of the race.

Imagine two teams with identical uniforms....one in 1st place and the other in a distant 7th. The official mistakenly instructs the 7th place team to take first position (and the 1st place team to take the 7th position). That could cost a team the championship.
01/24/2018 2:33:15 PM
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This is a great example of a guideline that should be followed to help reduce issues during a race - HOWEVER, should not result in DQ's of an athlete if not adhered to strictly. Since I expect the first time any athlete will see this enforced will be at the Region level, and there is no distinct advantage gained, I sure hope we don't see DQs for this in the postseason. I commonly work the finish line at the meets we host and a competent finish line official can put them in good placing and have no issues without strictly adhering to this "Freeze Rule".
This is a great example of a guideline that should be followed to help reduce issues during a race - HOWEVER, should not result in DQ's of an athlete if not adhered to strictly. Since I expect the first time any athlete will see this enforced will be at the Region level, and there is no distinct advantage gained, I sure hope we don't see DQs for this in the postseason.

I commonly work the finish line at the meets we host and a competent finish line official can put them in good placing and have no issues without strictly adhering to this "Freeze Rule".
01/24/2018 9:19:27 PM
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In my opinion seeing a few meets each year, a DQ should only be for impeding another team. If orders change, but nothing impedes, then what is the DQ?
In my opinion seeing a few meets each year, a DQ should only be for impeding another team. If orders change, but nothing impedes, then what is the DQ?
01/24/2018 10:14:48 PM
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I thought it was made to be no position changes on any leg of the last 200 meters of the leg currently running
I thought it was made to be no position changes on any leg of the last 200 meters of the leg currently running
01/24/2018 10:49:21 PM
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[quote=dddd]This is a great example of a guideline that should be followed to help reduce issues during a race.[/quote] @dddd That is what I am getting at. Like many things we experience, there are different interpretations. @halfmiletiming states what it "should" be and I fully agree with that. However, that was not the intrepretation last year at the state meet. I wanted to bring this topic up publically so that hopefully a very clear answer can be given. No there are no advantages to the rule, but there can be major disadvantages if an official enfoces it differently than intended. I also am not a fan of rules being implied or addressed in a FAQ section. If it is going to be a rule it needs to be in the rules section.
dddd wrote:
This is a great example of a guideline that should be followed to help reduce issues during a race.


@dddd That is what I am getting at. Like many things we experience, there are different interpretations. @halfmiletiming states what it "should" be and I fully agree with that. However, that was not the intrepretation last year at the state meet. I wanted to bring this topic up publically so that hopefully a very clear answer can be given.

No there are no advantages to the rule, but there can be major disadvantages if an official enfoces it differently than intended.

I also am not a fan of rules being implied or addressed in a FAQ section. If it is going to be a rule it needs to be in the rules section.
01/24/2018 10:57:01 PM
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[quote=multijumps] Imagine two teams with identical uniforms....one in 1st place and the other in a distant 7th. The official mistakenly instructs the 7th place team to take first position (and the 1st place team to take the 7th position). That could cost a team the championship.[/quote] @multijumps That pretty much is what happened. Though I do not know if there was another team matching our uniform. And instead of 1st and 7th, it was 4th and 16th.
multijumps wrote:

Imagine two teams with identical uniforms....one in 1st place and the other in a distant 7th. The official mistakenly instructs the 7th place team to take first position (and the 1st place team to take the 7th position). That could cost a team the championship.


@multijumps That pretty much is what happened. Though I do not know if there was another team matching our uniform. And instead of 1st and 7th, it was 4th and 16th.
01/25/2018 7:10:28 AM
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Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur. Runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate. Do not cut in on the final straight away, but run a straight line to their teammate and let them make the cut to lane 1 after the exchange. Well ......... one may as well talk the the scoreboard, because in almost every 4 X 400 the competitor on the outside in the 3rd position will get a final burst of energy and cut all the way to the inside in the last 20 meters. His teammate is standing in the third position and he is now waving for them to move to the first position. Kids are shoving each other and jostling to change positions, when they are now supposed to be stationary and waiting for their teammates to run a straight line to them. This now is the officials fault because we did not line them up properly? Make sure that we know and understand NFHS Rule 5-10-11 2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing runner to ensure they are in the proper position on the exchange. The official who is there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory capacity only, but with less experienced competitors, this becomes more of a teaching role.
Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur. Runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate. Do not cut in on the final straight away, but run a straight line to their teammate and let them make the cut to lane 1 after the exchange. Well ......... one may as well talk the the scoreboard, because in almost every 4 X 400 the competitor on the outside in the 3rd position will get a final burst of energy and cut all the way to the inside in the last 20 meters. His teammate is standing in the third position and he is now waving for them to move to the first position. Kids are shoving each other and jostling to change positions, when they are now supposed to be stationary and waiting for their teammates to run a straight line to them. This now is the officials fault because we did not line them up properly? Make sure that we know and understand NFHS Rule 5-10-11 2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis
It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly
defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing
runner to ensure they are in the proper
position on the exchange. The official who is
there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory
capacity only, but with less experienced
competitors, this becomes more of a teaching
role.
01/25/2018 7:59:28 AM
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[quote=snowbird]Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur. 2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing runner to ensure they are in the proper position on the exchange. The official who is there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory capacity only, but with less experienced competitors, this becomes more of a teaching role.[/quote] @snowbird It is kind of hard to teach a kid "the right way" if no one can clearly state the rules or procedures. I am trying to enter the season with a clear understanding of what to expect, so that I can prepare my team for what will come. I'm kind of shocked that not many people remember this from last year. Ed Thompson clearly does and agreed to address it at the next officials meeting he is going to. Last year there was not a DQ officially applied, but the officials did yell at my athletes with threats of DQ and forced them to come to a complete stop in the exchange zone, successfully ending our chances of winning the race. It was because they lined up my athlete in the wrong spot (16th all the way back against the wall). While I tried to let them know they told my girl if she moved she would be DQed. The incoming runner could not see her teammate lined up against the wall because officials were blocking the outside lanes (probably thinking that those teams were not coming in yet). Even after my incoming girl FINISHED they would not let my outgoing runner move until they realized they screwed up. They were literally standing on the track staring at each other but being told they were getting DQed. The officials initially wrote it up as a DQ and only after arguing with Ed did it get dismissed.
snowbird wrote:
Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur.

2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis
It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly
defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing
runner to ensure they are in the proper
position on the exchange. The official who is
there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory
capacity only, but with less experienced
competitors, this becomes more of a teaching
role.


@snowbird It is kind of hard to teach a kid "the right way" if no one can clearly state the rules or procedures. I am trying to enter the season with a clear understanding of what to expect, so that I can prepare my team for what will come. I'm kind of shocked that not many people remember this from last year. Ed Thompson clearly does and agreed to address it at the next officials meeting he is going to.

Last year there was not a DQ officially applied, but the officials did yell at my athletes with threats of DQ and forced them to come to a complete stop in the exchange zone, successfully ending our chances of winning the race. It was because they lined up my athlete in the wrong spot (16th all the way back against the wall). While I tried to let them know they told my girl if she moved she would be DQed. The incoming runner could not see her teammate lined up against the wall because officials were blocking the outside lanes (probably thinking that those teams were not coming in yet). Even after my incoming girl FINISHED they would not let my outgoing runner move until they realized they screwed up. They were literally standing on the track staring at each other but being told they were getting DQed. The officials initially wrote it up as a DQ and only after arguing with Ed did it get dismissed.
01/25/2018 8:59:23 AM
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[quote=snowbird]Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur. Runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate. Do not cut in on the final straight away, but run a straight line to their teammate and let them make the cut to lane 1 after the exchange. Well ......... one may as well talk the the scoreboard, because in almost every 4 X 400 the competitor on the outside in the 3rd position will get a final burst of energy and cut all the way to the inside in the last 20 meters. His teammate is standing in the third position and he is now waving for them to move to the first position. Kids are shoving each other and jostling to change positions, when they are now supposed to be stationary and waiting for their teammates to run a straight line to them. This now is the officials fault because we did not line them up properly? Make sure that we know and understand NFHS Rule 5-10-11 2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing runner to ensure they are in the proper position on the exchange. The official who is there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory capacity only, but with less experienced competitors, this becomes more of a teaching role.[/quote] @snowbird I am not sure where you get...."runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate." So if the teammate is in last position standing in lane 8, then your team will run further than 1600m if the incoming runner runs a straight line to the teammate. I have always taught my out going athletes to meet the incoming runner in lane 1 near the start/finish line. I tell the incoming runner to stay in lane 1 and not to meet the outgoing runner where you see them when they come off the final turn. There's less traffic near the start/finish line as most exchanges happen 3m-4m into the zone.
snowbird wrote:
Athletes need to be taught and coached on the correct way to run their leg of the race , how to line up on the track, and how to make the final approach to make the exchange, and what to do after they exchange. This is where the problems in the exchange zone occur. Runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate. Do not cut in on the final straight away, but run a straight line to their teammate and let them make the cut to lane 1 after the exchange. Well ......... one may as well talk the the scoreboard, because in almost every 4 X 400 the competitor on the outside in the 3rd position will get a final burst of energy and cut all the way to the inside in the last 20 meters. His teammate is standing in the third position and he is now waving for them to move to the first position. Kids are shoving each other and jostling to change positions, when they are now supposed to be stationary and waiting for their teammates to run a straight line to them. This now is the officials fault because we did not line them up properly? Make sure that we know and understand NFHS Rule 5-10-11 2018 NFHS Pre-Meet Notes Points Of Emphasis
It should be noted that Rule 5-10-11 clearly
defines that is it the responsibility of the outgoing
runner to ensure they are in the proper
position on the exchange. The official who is
there at the exchange zone is there in an advisory
capacity only, but with less experienced
competitors, this becomes more of a teaching
role.


@snowbird
I am not sure where you get...."runners are asked to come off the curve at the top of the track and run a straight line to their teammate." So if the teammate is in last position standing in lane 8, then your team will run further than 1600m if the incoming runner runs a straight line to the teammate. I have always taught my out going athletes to meet the incoming runner in lane 1 near the start/finish line. I tell the incoming runner to stay in lane 1 and not to meet the outgoing runner where you see them when they come off the final turn. There's less traffic near the start/finish line as most exchanges happen 3m-4m into the zone.
02/19/2018 9:56:15 AM
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Trying to follow up on this topic. I emailed Ed Thompson this weekend in regards to this rule. Above in this thread, multiple people either claim to not know of the rule or interpret it different than what the FHSAA is intending to do. My response from Ed was that they would keep the rule again this year. Meaning athletes would be "Frozen" based off their position as the lead runner of the race hits the 200m mark. His reply was acknowledged by another that the rule has been in place for over 20 years. Can someone please quote this rule for me?
Trying to follow up on this topic. I emailed Ed Thompson this weekend in regards to this rule. Above in this thread, multiple people either claim to not know of the rule or interpret it different than what the FHSAA is intending to do. My response from Ed was that they would keep the rule again this year. Meaning athletes would be "Frozen" based off their position as the lead runner of the race hits the 200m mark. His reply was acknowledged by another that the rule has been in place for over 20 years. Can someone please quote this rule for me?
02/19/2018 12:48:29 PM
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[quote=LFCSumner3]Trying to follow up on this topic. I emailed Ed Thompson this weekend in regards to this rule. Above in this thread, multiple people either claim to not know of the rule or interpret it different than what the FHSAA is intending to do. My response from Ed was that they would keep the rule again this year. Meaning athletes would be "Frozen" based off their position as the lead runner of the race hits the 200m mark. His reply was acknowledged by another that the rule has been in place for over 20 years. Can someone please quote this rule for me?[/quote] @LFCSumner3 I learned of the rule after a conversation before the start of last season during a conversation with Derek Monroe. I don't know where its located but as you have stated, its usually only enforced if you have a knowledgeable officiating crew at an Invite or during Regionals and State. I will ask him where I can find the rule written and get back to you.
LFCSumner3 wrote:
Trying to follow up on this topic. I emailed Ed Thompson this weekend in regards to this rule. Above in this thread, multiple people either claim to not know of the rule or interpret it different than what the FHSAA is intending to do. My response from Ed was that they would keep the rule again this year. Meaning athletes would be "Frozen" based off their position as the lead runner of the race hits the 200m mark. His reply was acknowledged by another that the rule has been in place for over 20 years. Can someone please quote this rule for me?


@LFCSumner3

I learned of the rule after a conversation before the start of last season during a conversation with Derek Monroe. I don't know where its located but as you have stated, its usually only enforced if you have a knowledgeable officiating crew at an Invite or during Regionals and State. I will ask him where I can find the rule written and get back to you.
02/20/2018 9:12:21 AM
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Chris, Since I am the other person you reference, I'll share my research and take on the conversation. Positions for exchange are established once the incoming runners come off the final turn into the final straightaway to hand off. At that point, the incoming runner has established his/her straight course to the exchange. The outgoing runner is responsible for matching that position without interfering with another teams ability to exchange. That is what you have named the "Freeze Rule" as I understand it. I went through all the books and even some old copies i have. The NFHS removed the portion of text where the official is responsible for placing the runners a few years ago. The following was the language before the change and is still the language for other levels of competition which is why it is believed that an official makes the call by some: Receivers for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall lineup, as instructed by an official, in the same relative position as their incoming teammates; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holders in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass.When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. The NFHS book rule 5.10.11 covers this item in the 2018 addition. It says: In relays of 800m or longer and which are not run in lanes, the games committee shall determine the method of exchanging batons at each station. At each station, competitors shall line up in the same relative lane position as that of their teammate who started the race, but there may be movement to a position better suited to meeting the passer of the baton. Each passer shall keep a straight course to the exchange zone. The responsibility for taking a position which corresponds to that which the passer is entitled is on the outgoing competitor. The official at the exchange zone for these races should be there to call infractions which result in interference with a teams ability to exchange due to violation of the 5.10.11 rule. Many officials try to assist athletes in getting into order as the race unfolds as a courtesy. If anything, that courtesy should be reviewed and decided if it is in fact needed.
Chris,

Since I am the other person you reference, I'll share my research and take on the conversation.

Positions for exchange are established once the incoming runners come off the final turn into the final straightaway to hand off. At that point, the incoming runner has established his/her straight course to the exchange. The outgoing runner is responsible for matching that position without interfering with another teams ability to exchange. That is what you have named the "Freeze Rule" as I understand it.

I went through all the books and even some old copies i have. The NFHS removed the portion of text where the official is responsible for placing the runners a few years ago. The following was the language before the change and is still the language for other levels of competition which is why it is believed that an official makes the call by some:

Receivers for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall lineup, as instructed by an official, in the same relative position as their incoming teammates; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holders in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass.When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions.

The NFHS book rule 5.10.11 covers this item in the 2018 addition. It says:

In relays of 800m or longer and which are not run in lanes, the games committee shall determine the method of exchanging batons at each station. At each station, competitors shall line up in the same relative lane position as that of their teammate who started the race, but there may be movement to a position better suited to meeting the passer of the baton. Each passer shall keep a straight course to the exchange zone. The responsibility for taking a position which corresponds to that which the passer is entitled is on the outgoing competitor.

The official at the exchange zone for these races should be there to call infractions which result in interference with a teams ability to exchange due to violation of the 5.10.11 rule. Many officials try to assist athletes in getting into order as the race unfolds as a courtesy. If anything, that courtesy should be reviewed and decided if it is in fact needed.
02/20/2018 9:58:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 108
This thread addresses 3 different issues in my opinion. 1. When is the outgoing runner's position established? Halfmiletiming included a reference to the NFHS rule stating that it is when the incoming runner is coming off the last turn. Chris stated that he was told by Ed Thompson that it is actually when incoming runner has 200m to go. 2. What role does the official play? The NFHS rule quoted by Halfmiletiming seems to indicate that the official cannot determine placement of outgoing runners (can only "advise"), and can only keep runners from impeding others. Chris stated that at the state meet, his outgoing runner was erroneously placed in the 16th position by officials, was not allowed to move, and was blocked from view by officials. 3. How do we know how NFHS rules will be interpreted by our state? I admit I have not tried to look this up in the FHSAA manual. However, after reading the posts above, it sounds as if the NFHS rule is not being followed as it applies to establishment of outgoing runners positions (NFHS- last turn, Ed Thompson- last 200m). If FHSAA interpretations are different, why are we often referred to the NFHS manual on this forum, and how will we know about the changes? I can't speak for Chris, but I think he is asking for clarification as well as written documentation of the 2 rules addressed here.
This thread addresses 3 different issues in my opinion.
1. When is the outgoing runner's position established? Halfmiletiming included a reference to the NFHS rule stating that it is when the incoming runner is coming off the last turn. Chris stated that he was told by Ed Thompson that it is actually when incoming runner has 200m to go.

2. What role does the official play? The NFHS rule quoted by Halfmiletiming seems to indicate that the official cannot determine placement of outgoing runners (can only "advise"), and can only keep runners from impeding others. Chris stated that at the state meet, his outgoing runner was erroneously placed in the 16th position by officials, was not allowed to move, and was blocked from view by officials.

3. How do we know how NFHS rules will be interpreted by our state? I admit I have not tried to look this up in the FHSAA manual. However, after reading the posts above, it sounds as if the NFHS rule is not being followed as it applies to establishment of outgoing runners positions (NFHS- last turn, Ed Thompson- last 200m). If FHSAA interpretations are different, why are we often referred to the NFHS manual on this forum, and how will we know about the changes?

I can't speak for Chris, but I think he is asking for clarification as well as written documentation of the 2 rules addressed here.
02/20/2018 10:23:11 AM
Coach
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 163
@francee I've never stated 200m as the spot where outgoing runners are locked in. 200m is the mark utilized by NCAA. The procedure has been on the FAQ page for two years now: Q: What are the 4X400 and 4X800 relay exchange procedures for third and fourth runner in 4X400 and second, third and fourth runner in 4X800? The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified. In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs.
@francee I've never stated 200m as the spot where outgoing runners are locked in. 200m is the mark utilized by NCAA. The procedure has been on the FAQ page for two years now:

Q: What are the 4X400 and 4X800 relay exchange procedures for third and fourth runner in 4X400 and second, third and fourth runner in 4X800?

The procedure: Receives for relay exchanges that do not occur in assigned lanes shall line up, as instructed by an official, in the relative position as their incoming teammate; the leaders shall pass in the first position, the second-place holder in the second position, etc. This line-up position is determined and should be maintained when the leader is at the beginning of the straight before the pass. When interference is not possible, receivers may move to the inside and should maintain the same relative positions. If a runner does not follow this rule, his/her team shall be disqualified.

In simple language runners would be lined up by an official in the order of their teammate on the back stretch they would be instructed to shuffle positions, only once, as the first runner comes off of the last turn. From that point on there will be no movement other than shuffling toward lane one as the runner in front of them departs.

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