NCHSAA 4A 55M Dash Qualifiers- How did they break the 8th Place tie?
02/13/2012 11:32:02 PM
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Coach George/ Mr DePaul Mittman- I would like to know how they determined the 8th place qualifier in the W 55M Dash. The results show 7.30 for 3 runners. My daughter was included in the 3. 2 of 3 were running in Heat 1 and 1 in Heat 3. In the past I have seen results taken out to the thousandth but there was no such listing in this case. I can see how a photo finish could be used to determine a single heat but it does not seem to be possible to compare the results of 2 heat using that technic. Although this place had no bearing on the finals, it certainly was important to the 2 excluded and it seems only fair to know the method of determination or if it was taken to the thousandth know the times to this precision level. 8 Aalayah Faulcon 12 Southern Dur 7.31 7.30q 3 9 Madison Rayfield 12 East Forsyth 7.24 7.30 1 10 Ama-Selina Tchume 10 Southeast Ra 7.37 7.30 1
Coach George/ Mr DePaul Mittman- I would like to know how they determined the 8th place qualifier in the W 55M Dash. The results show 7.30 for 3 runners. My daughter was included in the 3. 2 of 3 were running in Heat 1 and 1 in Heat 3. In the past I have seen results taken out to the thousandth but there was no such listing in this case. I can see how a photo finish could be used to determine a single heat but it does not seem to be possible to compare the results of 2 heat using that technic. Although this place had no bearing on the finals, it certainly was important to the 2 excluded and it seems only fair to know the method of determination or if it was taken to the thousandth know the times to this precision level.

8 Aalayah Faulcon 12 Southern Dur 7.31 7.30q 3
9 Madison Rayfield 12 East Forsyth 7.24 7.30 1
10 Ama-Selina Tchume 10 Southeast Ra 7.37 7.30 1
02/14/2012 1:35:02 AM
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seed time?
seed time?
02/14/2012 6:22:15 AM
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@jrayfield The FAT system records more than just hundredths. When they need to break a tie like that, they go to the thousandth of a second (some systems can even go to the ten-thousandth). Normally, they show the extra digits in the results, so that everyone can see how the tie was broken. I'll see if Coach Davis still has the full numbers.
@jrayfield The FAT system records more than just hundredths. When they need to break a tie like that, they go to the thousandth of a second (some systems can even go to the ten-thousandth). Normally, they show the extra digits in the results, so that everyone can see how the tie was broken. I'll see if Coach Davis still has the full numbers.
02/14/2012 8:12:40 AM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR In the 1A/2A/3A State meet a similar incident happened in the girls 55 Dash prelims for 8th place. The 8th and 9th qualifier ran a 7.53, but they ran in the same heat and those times were taken out to the thousandths of a second to decide who would be the final qualifier for the finals. I took a look at the rule book and could not find anything that talks about breaking a ties for advancement if two atheltes are in separate heats and ran the same time.
@CoachGeorgeRJR
In the 1A/2A/3A State meet a similar incident happened in the girls 55 Dash prelims for 8th place. The 8th and 9th qualifier ran a 7.53, but they ran in the same heat and those times were taken out to the thousandths of a second to decide who would be the final qualifier for the finals.

I took a look at the rule book and could not find anything that talks about breaking a ties for advancement if two atheltes are in separate heats and ran the same time.
02/14/2012 4:33:40 PM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR Thanks. I thought it was odd that as the poster stated a two way tie occured in the 1/2/3A meet for 9th and 10th place and the results show the time to 1000th. I guess the timing system was the same for both meets so I did not understand why the same thing was not done when a finals spot was determined between 3 competitors just for clarity and full disclosure. They obviously used the thousandth time to determine 2nd and 3rd place in heat 1 of the 4A Girls 55M Dash as they listed them without showing both as 2. with the 4th best time a 4. Girls 55 Meter Dash 1/2/3A 55M Preliminary ============================================================================ 8 Advance: Top 1 Each Heat plus Next 5 Best Times Name Year School Seed Prelims H# 9 Tori Elliott 12 Cox Mill 7.40 7.53 1 7.529 10 Kylie Mcmillan 9 Southern Gui 7.54 7.53 1 7.530
@CoachGeorgeRJR Thanks. I thought it was odd that as the poster stated a two way tie occured in the 1/2/3A meet for 9th and 10th place and the results show the time to 1000th. I guess the timing system was the same for both meets so I did not understand why the same thing was not done when a finals spot was determined between 3 competitors just for clarity and full disclosure. They obviously used the thousandth time to determine 2nd and 3rd place in heat 1 of the 4A Girls 55M Dash as they listed them without showing both as 2. with the 4th best time a 4.

Girls 55 Meter Dash 1/2/3A 55M Preliminary
============================================================================
8 Advance: Top 1 Each Heat plus Next 5 Best Times
Name Year School Seed Prelims H#

9 Tori Elliott 12 Cox Mill 7.40 7.53 1 7.529
10 Kylie Mcmillan 9 Southern Gui 7.54 7.53 1 7.530
02/15/2012 4:19:09 PM
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@jrayfield
02/16/2012 10:21:39 AM
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@jrayfield When using fully automatic timing, results are always recorded beyond the hundredths place. However, by rule results are only published to the hundredths place. What you have seen in other results at times(which is done manually) are what is called event notes which are appended to the results to advise/educate and to show/clarify potential questions. However, if the results showed 8th place for all 3 places verses 8th,9th,and 10th then the results could reflect something different for the qualifiers. The heat that which the competitors compete in doesn't matter nor affect who advances. Also, the database software commonly being used does that from the recording of the results on the network. Therefore, before raising concerns implying potential wrong doing, please understand rules and ask those questions at that time not after the fact. I'd noticed the results were posted and also were being posted online. As a concern parent/track fan, those questions/concerns could have been addressed at that time. Those concerns should have been addressed to that athlete's coach for a better understanding. This is about the kids not personal hoopla. I have attended several events in various states and notice how people are so quick to judge verses asking for a ruling or how is something is determined. We as track fans should consider fairness verses accusations.
@jrayfield
When using fully automatic timing, results are always recorded beyond the hundredths place. However, by rule results are only published to the hundredths place. What you have seen in other results at times(which is done manually) are what is called event notes which are appended to the results to advise/educate and to show/clarify potential questions. However, if the results showed 8th place for all 3 places verses 8th,9th,and 10th then the results could reflect something different for the qualifiers. The heat that which the competitors compete in doesn't matter nor affect who advances. Also, the database software commonly being used does that from the recording of the results on the network. Therefore, before raising concerns implying potential wrong doing, please understand rules and ask those questions at that time not after the fact. I'd noticed the results were posted and also were being posted online. As a concern parent/track fan, those questions/concerns could have been addressed at that time. Those concerns should have been addressed to that athlete's coach for a better understanding. This is about the kids not personal hoopla. I have attended several events in various states and notice how people are so quick to judge verses asking for a ruling or how is something is determined. We as track fans should consider fairness verses accusations.
02/16/2012 10:23:12 AM
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@wncpreptrack Seed marks are never used to determine qualifiers for advancement or should I say should never be used to determine a qualifying position
@wncpreptrack
Seed marks are never used to determine qualifiers for advancement or should I say should never be used to determine a qualifying position
02/16/2012 10:30:22 AM
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@rking In a results like that, technically it wasn't a tie. To a database software if it pulls over data from a timing system i.e. 7.522 and 7.521. It would show 7.53 per track and field rules for publishing results. So to the public there was a tie. However, there wasn't because the times are not [b]exactly[/b] the same. So if the ranking of the places are not the same, then there wasn't a tie but for publishing of results it would appear as if it was.
@rking
In a results like that, technically it wasn't a tie. To a database software if it pulls over data from a timing system i.e. 7.522 and 7.521. It would show 7.53 per track and field rules for publishing results. So to the public there was a tie. However, there wasn't because the times are not exactly the same. So if the ranking of the places are not the same, then there wasn't a tie but for publishing of results it would appear as if it was.
02/16/2012 10:35:39 AM
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@jrayfield It was probably an oversight to show that. That is something that is not automatically done. It is done manually. When you have a lot of things going on, it could be overlooked to show that. That is a courtesy to show that additional information not a requirement. However, if a coach inquires, I am sure any timer would give them that information
@jrayfield
It was probably an oversight to show that. That is something that is not automatically done. It is done manually. When you have a lot of things going on, it could be overlooked to show that. That is a courtesy to show that additional information not a requirement. However, if a coach inquires, I am sure any timer would give them that information
02/16/2012 1:25:54 PM
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@dwightrobins do u work for the timing company or were u part of the state meet managers? If not I can not understand how you can read an any purported accusation of improper conduct. The reason this question was not asked at the time was it did not matter to anyone but the two excluded athletes and their families. I am not sure why this concerns u or why u r so defensive. All I am asking is for the times to the thousandth if that is the way the eighth place was determined which does not seem unreasonable to me since as u stated it was available as demonstrated in the 3a meet.
@dwightrobins do u work for the timing company or were u part of the state meet managers? If not I can not understand how you can read an any purported accusation of improper conduct. The reason this question was not asked at the time was it did not matter to anyone but the two excluded athletes and their families. I am not sure why this concerns u or why u r so defensive. All I am asking is for the times to the thousandth if that is the way the eighth place was determined which does not seem unreasonable to me since as u stated it was available as demonstrated in the 3a meet.
02/16/2012 2:15:26 PM
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@jrayfield As a parent of an athlete, nothing was said nor written to fact of improper conduct. No one is being defensive. Only facts are being stated. I watch my son compete at a lot of events and I watch and listen to the things being said and done. if you want to imply something, please don't take what I wrote and change words. Let me clarify. Sometimes, we as parents don't know all the rules of the sport and there is nothing wrong in questioning calls made. We are just supportive parents. However, there are protocols to everything. If we are going to trust a coach with our kid(s) and we think or don't understand the ruling on something, I just feel concerns could be addressed to the coach or official for an understanding and if they don't know then proceed onward. Just just start speculating things in a way to discredit someone services. We are human and we do make mistakes. When I mentioned that it could have been asked about at the meet, I was implying for that parent to ask the coach for verification because a mistake could have been made. If she earned to be in the finals, then she should be in the finals. I watch a lot of coaches questioning results. That's their job if they feel as if something may have been questionable. If my child came to me and ask "how did they decide who qualified if all of us had the same time"? I feel that coach and myself(if I/we don't know how it was done) should ask before the finals takes place so I can assure my child wasn't left out mistakenly. That's all I was saying. I feel that you took this to another level and made it into something it wasn't. Basically, if we are telling our kids to ask questions about things they do not know or understand, why can't we practice what we preach and not critique afterwards. Apparently, that coach felt as if that company is not trying to cheat any kids out of anything. Does that company have nay kids competing? If not, then what's the problem. We as parents who has kids competing should not assume rules but either take time to read the rules or don't be afraid to ask about things at the meet. If you ran track, I am pretty sure the rules have change since you ran. I know it has since I ran and I do read the rules because NC HS has some rules that are different than what I have read in previous years
@jrayfield
As a parent of an athlete, nothing was said nor written to fact of improper conduct. No one is being defensive. Only facts are being stated. I watch my son compete at a lot of events and I watch and listen to the things being said and done. if you want to imply something, please don't take what I wrote and change words. Let me clarify. Sometimes, we as parents don't know all the rules of the sport and there is nothing wrong in questioning calls made. We are just supportive parents. However, there are protocols to everything. If we are going to trust a coach with our kid(s) and we think or don't understand the ruling on something, I just feel concerns could be addressed to the coach or official for an understanding and if they don't know then proceed onward. Just just start speculating things in a way to discredit someone services. We are human and we do make mistakes. When I mentioned that it could have been asked about at the meet, I was implying for that parent to ask the coach for verification because a mistake could have been made. If she earned to be in the finals, then she should be in the finals. I watch a lot of coaches questioning results. That's their job if they feel as if something may have been questionable. If my child came to me and ask "how did they decide who qualified if all of us had the same time"? I feel that coach and myself(if I/we don't know how it was done) should ask before the finals takes place so I can assure my child wasn't left out mistakenly. That's all I was saying. I feel that you took this to another level and made it into something it wasn't. Basically, if we are telling our kids to ask questions about things they do not know or understand, why can't we practice what we preach and not critique afterwards. Apparently, that coach felt as if that company is not trying to cheat any kids out of anything. Does that company have nay kids competing? If not, then what's the problem. We as parents who has kids competing should not assume rules but either take time to read the rules or don't be afraid to ask about things at the meet. If you ran track, I am pretty sure the rules have change since you ran. I know it has since I ran and I do read the rules because NC HS has some rules that are different than what I have read in previous years
02/16/2012 2:38:01 PM
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@dwightrobins said- "Therefore, before raising concerns implying potential wrong doing, please understand rules and ask those questions at that time not after the fact. I'd noticed the results were posted and also were being posted online. As a concern parent/track fan, those questions/concerns could have been addressed at that time. Those concerns should have been addressed to that athlete's coach for a better understanding.....This is about the kids not personal hoopla. I have attended several events in various states and notice how people are so quick to judge verses asking for a ruling or how is something is determined. We as track fans should consider fairness verses accusations." Maybe I miss read it but this portion of your post seems to interprete my words "I thought is was odd" to mean something much more sinister as you interpreted it as "potential wrong doing". I am not judging or accusing anyone and I resent you implying I am. My question was directed to CoachGeorge specifically because I knew if anyone had the raw times from the meet he would know and could advise me. There was no need to ask the question immediately after the results were posted, I was consuling my kid at that time and I am not challenging the results just asking for the data used to determine the places, because nothing presented at the site, online or known by the coach can answer my original question. If thousandths were used to determine Heat 1 2nd and third places then event notes should probably have been made as they were in the 1/2/3A meet and also for Heat 3 to clearly present for all to see how the determination was made. If the Mr. Mittman can not answer the question then so be it, I thought it was worth a shot to find out the facts. As an aside what is this to you anyway you have been on Milesplit since October, never posted before this and decided that my simple direct question was so accusatory that you had to chime in, I don't think so.
@dwightrobins said-
"Therefore, before raising concerns implying potential wrong doing, please understand rules and ask those questions at that time not after the fact. I'd noticed the results were posted and also were being posted online. As a concern parent/track fan, those questions/concerns could have been addressed at that time. Those concerns should have been addressed to that athlete's coach for a better understanding.....This is about the kids not personal hoopla. I have attended several events in various states and notice how people are so quick to judge verses asking for a ruling or how is something is determined. We as track fans should consider fairness verses accusations."

Maybe I miss read it but this portion of your post seems to interprete my words "I thought is was odd" to mean something much more sinister as you interpreted it as "potential wrong doing". I am not judging or accusing anyone and I resent you implying I am. My question was directed to CoachGeorge specifically because I knew if anyone had the raw times from the meet he would know and could advise me.

There was no need to ask the question immediately after the results were posted, I was consuling my kid at that time and I am not challenging the results just asking for the data used to determine the places, because nothing presented at the site, online or known by the coach can answer my original question. If thousandths were used to determine Heat 1 2nd and third places then event notes should probably have been made as they were in the 1/2/3A meet and also for Heat 3 to clearly present for all to see how the determination was made.

If the Mr. Mittman can not answer the question then so be it, I thought it was worth a shot to find out the facts. As an aside what is this to you anyway you have been on Milesplit since October, never posted before this and decided that my simple direct question was so accusatory that you had to chime in, I don't think so.

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