Is this really happening in CC???
09/03/2017 5:13:16 PM
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Let me first start by saying how much I love Cross Country and the sport of running. Thank you to all the coaches that spend countless hours helping our children become better people. Not just the "fast" ones but all of them that try. Now with that being said, I am thinking about starting a running club that only takes the best of the best. I will find a school (maybe Country Palm Charter or CPC for short) that will let us use their name to run underneath their FHSAA umbrella. They don't have to go to CPC at all. In fact, they can go to another Private school or public school or "virtual" school or even better, they can say they are "homeschooled". You can live wherever you want just make sure to wear the right uniform for the meet. If you are a top runner in middle school, I will be talking to you soon about joining us in the near future. I would have a strict set of criteria. 1. You must be fast. That is the whole list. It should all be good with the FHSAA mission statement "to provide a level competitive playing opportunity for all student athletes" I would prefer to win a State Championship right out the gate. If you ask me how this all came about, I will just say "I have no idea" (but I do) Please feel free to let me know if this is a good idea. I am not getting a lot of good feedback, but I just feel that this is right for me (I mean the kids)
Let me first start by saying how much I love Cross Country and the sport of running. Thank you to all the coaches that spend countless hours helping our children become better people. Not just the "fast" ones but all of them that try.
Now with that being said, I am thinking about starting a running club that only takes the best of the best. I will find a school (maybe Country Palm Charter or CPC for short) that will let us use their name to run underneath their FHSAA umbrella. They don't have to go to CPC at all. In fact, they can go to another Private school or public school or "virtual" school or even better, they can say they are "homeschooled". You can live wherever you want just make sure to wear the right uniform for the meet. If you are a top runner in middle school, I will be talking to you soon about joining us in the near future. I would have a strict set of criteria.
1. You must be fast.
That is the whole list. It should all be good with the FHSAA mission statement "to provide a level competitive playing opportunity for all student athletes"
I would prefer to win a State Championship right out the gate. If you ask me how this all came about, I will just say "I have no idea" (but I do)
Please feel free to let me know if this is a good idea. I am not getting a lot of good feedback, but I just feel that this is right for me (I mean the kids)
09/04/2017 7:19:31 AM
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And we do know who your speaking of..: Hearsay is that they have been reported but nothing done.
And we do know who your speaking of..: Hearsay is that they have been reported but nothing done.
09/04/2017 8:20:28 AM
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Is any of this surprising to you? This has been happening in other sports for years under the "academy" system. I'm surprised it hasn't been happening in XC and track. Don't blame the FHSAA though. They didn't want this. The Florida legislature are the ones to thank.
Is any of this surprising to you? This has been happening in other sports for years under the "academy" system. I'm surprised it hasn't been happening in XC and track. Don't blame the FHSAA though. They didn't want this. The Florida legislature are the ones to thank.
09/04/2017 9:20:23 AM
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[quote=Coach_Don]@timeforchange Would you also coach this team under a fake name so that you can criticize runners and coaches anonymously without having the courage to sign your name to your opinions?[/quote] Agreed. I signed my name when I sent my report to FHSAA. I wasn't going to comment since most don't even know what this means. It is a more worthy discussion than this. @Coach_Don
Coach_Don wrote:
@timeforchange Would you also coach this team under a fake name so that you can criticize runners and coaches anonymously without having the courage to sign your name to your opinions?

Agreed. I signed my name when I sent my report to FHSAA. I wasn't going to comment since most don't even know what this means. It is a more worthy discussion than this.
@Coach_Don
09/04/2017 10:18:23 AM
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@timeforchange so wait, are you talking about Citrus Park Christian coached by the legendary Ray Friedman?
@timeforchange so wait, are you talking about Citrus Park Christian coached by the legendary Ray Friedman?
09/04/2017 10:19:57 AM
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@Dfletcher1007 he turned the Steinbrenner girls into the steinGOD girls. #livinglegend #silentstorm
@Dfletcher1007 he turned the Steinbrenner girls into the steinGOD girls. #livinglegend #silentstorm
09/04/2017 1:54:02 PM
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I feel like this is not an appropriate place for such a discussion.
I feel like this is not an appropriate place for such a discussion.
09/04/2017 3:28:27 PM
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Bottom line is that FHSAA has been made aware of it (not from me), so if this approach is deemed illegal, we will find out. If is deemed legal, it probably indicates that recruiting in cross-country has finally caught up with the marquee high school sports in Florida. We made the big time! If you coach for love of the sport and to develop that love in kids, this new normal does not sting that much. Hopefully, no child on your team will give up running because another team recruits!
Bottom line is that FHSAA has been made aware of it (not from me), so if this approach is deemed illegal, we will find out. If is deemed legal, it probably indicates that recruiting in cross-country has finally caught up with the marquee high school sports in Florida. We made the big time!

If you coach for love of the sport and to develop that love in kids, this new normal does not sting that much. Hopefully, no child on your team will give up running because another team recruits!
09/04/2017 4:30:16 PM
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Sometimes things are not as they seem. In my perfect world, high school athletes would be full-time attendees of the school they compete for, and live in that school's zone. They would be coached competently, and public and private school associations would be separate. Coaches who recruit would be hanged, drawn and quartered, and burned at the stake. That, however, is not the world we live in. The FHSAA has been chipped away at for about three decades now. It began with a prominent private school trotting out a slew of lawyers re: recruiting. The FHSAA lacked the firepower to combat them. As most of you know, the downhill accelerated when a state legislator, unhappy with an appeal decision, decided to emasculate the FHSAA. The FHSAA has done what it can, with what is allowed to have. So, the matter at hand. Things are not always as they seem. Is CPC a renegade institution, or a refuge? Is the afore-mentioned Ray Friedman an evil Svengali, or a benevolent Pied Piper? Having known the young man since he was a kid, I would opt for the latter. Without going into detail, perhaps more people should investigate, question, and not assume. The FHSAA has investigated, and found there is no "there," there. Passion, enthusiasm, "magnetism," and caring are not qualities to be condemned. Sometimes, though, they create jealousy. Sometimes things are not as they seem. I will post my name. Paul Nowicki Bartram Trail High School.
Sometimes things are not as they seem. In my perfect world, high school athletes would be full-time attendees of the school they compete for, and live in that school's zone. They would be coached competently, and public and private school associations would be separate. Coaches who recruit would be hanged, drawn and quartered, and burned at the stake.
That, however, is not the world we live in.

The FHSAA has been chipped away at for about three decades now. It began with a prominent private school trotting out a slew of lawyers re: recruiting. The FHSAA lacked the firepower to combat them. As most of you know, the downhill accelerated when a state legislator, unhappy with an appeal decision, decided to emasculate the FHSAA.
The FHSAA has done what it can, with what is allowed to have.
So, the matter at hand. Things are not always as they seem.
Is CPC a renegade institution, or a refuge?
Is the afore-mentioned Ray Friedman an evil Svengali, or a benevolent Pied Piper?
Having known the young man since he was a kid, I would opt for the latter.
Without going into detail, perhaps more people should investigate, question, and not assume.

The FHSAA has investigated, and found there is no "there," there.
Passion, enthusiasm, "magnetism," and caring are not qualities to be condemned. Sometimes, though, they create jealousy.

Sometimes things are not as they seem.

I will post my name.
Paul Nowicki
Bartram Trail High School.
09/04/2017 8:24:16 PM
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Hey Paul, Thanks for the insight. Gotta lodge a gentle protest on your bid to separate public & private associations. In a small city like Tallahassee, that would mean kids who grew up running together don't get to compete with/against their pals as high school choices are made. While my small private school (Maclay) is outgunned by the sheer size and middle school feeder programs of big publics like Chiles, Leon, and Lincoln (which, BTW, have solid coaching), we at least enjoy the opportunity to test ourselves against them. I am sure it's a different situation in a metropolis like Jacksonville, but in the largely rural Big Bend, it would be an uphill challenge for private schools to schedule their minimum five meets without folding in with the publics. Gary Droze Proud (flawed) product of Florida public schools
Hey Paul,
Thanks for the insight. Gotta lodge a gentle protest on your bid to separate public & private associations. In a small city like Tallahassee, that would mean kids who grew up running together don't get to compete with/against their pals as high school choices are made. While my small private school (Maclay) is outgunned by the sheer size and middle school feeder programs of big publics like Chiles, Leon, and Lincoln (which, BTW, have solid coaching), we at least enjoy the opportunity to test ourselves against them. I am sure it's a different situation in a metropolis like Jacksonville, but in the largely rural Big Bend, it would be an uphill challenge for private schools to schedule their minimum five meets without folding in with the publics.

Gary Droze
Proud (flawed) product of Florida public schools
09/04/2017 9:00:42 PM
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@GaryDroze I would think the private/public separation would only need to happen in the post-season. We could all run against each other in invitationals and even county/conference championships, but starting with districts... the big divide.
@GaryDroze I would think the private/public separation would only need to happen in the post-season. We could all run against each other in invitationals and even county/conference championships, but starting with districts... the big divide.
09/05/2017 7:53:43 AM
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I will weigh in my two cents as I have a little experience with both private and public schools. While at the private school for 15 years I got tired of hearing people complain about us not having school boundaries and thus having an unfair advantage. Although we had only 550 kids in grades 7-12 we still held our own with schools 2/3 times our size. I was against separating public and private schools then. Now at the local public school and up a classification in the 2a class of death, I am still against separating public and private schools. My kids are as well. We measure ourselves against the best in the state, not against the public schools in the state. Bolles, TP, Pinecrest, etc.. are our goals each year, not being the best public school. While at HT my kids came from the lower school up through our program. Some started in 7th grade, but most in grade school. In 15 years only 2 kids that I know of came there after jr. high. I can sleep well at night with that. : )
I will weigh in my two cents as I have a little experience with both private and public schools. While at the private school for 15 years I got tired of hearing people complain about us not having school boundaries and thus having an unfair advantage. Although we had only 550 kids in grades 7-12 we still held our own with schools 2/3 times our size. I was against separating public and private schools then. Now at the local public school and up a classification in the 2a class of death, I am still against separating public and private schools. My kids are as well. We measure ourselves against the best in the state, not against the public schools in the state. Bolles, TP, Pinecrest, etc.. are our goals each year, not being the best public school. While at HT my kids came from the lower school up through our program. Some started in 7th grade, but most in grade school. In 15 years only 2 kids that I know of came there after jr. high. I can sleep well at night with that. : )
09/05/2017 10:02:43 AM
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Uhh, fellas, not what this thread or my post was about. I simply stated my druthers, and went on to discuss the issue at hand. The public-private thing has been rehashed beyond ad infinitum. Old news!
Uhh, fellas, not what this thread or my post was about. I simply stated my druthers, and went on to discuss the issue at hand. The public-private thing has been rehashed beyond ad infinitum. Old news!
09/05/2017 10:05:43 AM
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I will just throw my 2 cents in and say that the FHSAA rules also say no GPS watches. The last two races I have gone to to watch my daughter compete, not one girl from her varsity team wore any type of watch, yet I have seen runners from the private schools wearing all types of watches including Garmin Forerunners. When is someone going to enforce the rules instead of being selective with the top ranking schools? What's wrong, they can't pace themselves without a watch? Clearly the folks at the FHSAA aren't policing their own policies; the "elite" teams are skirting the rules that no GPS watches allowed and I have pictures of them hiding behind other girls while setting their watches. Any other complaints yet parents ? I also think that a team who hosts that gets to practice their own course for weeks is a disadvantage especially when they change the course map two days ahead of the race yet the hosting. I guess we can all complain about a list of things.
I will just throw my 2 cents in and say that the FHSAA rules also say no GPS watches. The last two races I have gone to to watch my daughter compete, not one girl from her varsity team wore any type of watch, yet I have seen runners from the private schools wearing all types of watches including Garmin Forerunners. When is someone going to enforce the rules instead of being selective with the top ranking schools? What's wrong, they can't pace themselves without a watch? Clearly the folks at the FHSAA aren't policing their own policies; the "elite" teams are skirting the rules that no GPS watches allowed and I have pictures of them hiding behind other girls while setting their watches. Any other complaints yet parents ? I also think that a team who hosts that gets to practice their own course for weeks is a disadvantage especially when they change the course map two days ahead of the race yet the hosting. I guess we can all complain about a list of things.
09/05/2017 10:11:22 AM
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??? Are you serious? This has to be Sumner at work!
??? Are you serious? This has to be Sumner at work!
09/05/2017 12:12:03 PM
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This thread has been derailed. The issue at hand isn’t about GPS watches or teams being able to practice on their home course (what?). The concern is for the future of interscholastic competition within our sport and maintaining an ounce of integrity with regards to fair competition. Do we allow club coaches to recruit/influence his or her athletes from a set area and leave their current school to enroll at a private schools online program? Doing so, allows them to technically fall under the same umbrella and wear the same jersey on race day. Super-teams are created and can target “weaker” classifications that are already disadvantaged due to low numbers. How is a 1A school with 300 students supposed to even come close to competing against an all-star team that just had 5 of the top athletes in the State transfer to their “school”? It’s not just a small school problem though. No matter the number of athletes, or the level of coaching, most schools will never be able to compete against these all-star teams. Just look at CPC blowing out every girls team in the State right now. My question: Are these teams limited to county all-star teams or could they be also be all-state teams? Could every top athlete in the State enroll in a schools online program and show up from all corners of the State on race day to wear the same jersey? Regardless, the only one’s who benefit from this are the club coaches, who have their pockets padded and egos stroked, and the few top tier teams who are more competitive at NXN. Every other program is left behind at no fault of their own. I agree this isn’t the best platform to have the discussion. However, as long as FLRunners wants to continue promoting and praising this team and similar, it certainly should have a place for discussion on these forums. We have many coaches, parents, and fans who are concerned about this issue and want to have a chance to weigh in (beyond empty responses). Regards, Justin Taylor St. Joseph Academy P.S. Hope everyone stays safe from Hurricane Irma this weekend!
This thread has been derailed. The issue at hand isn't about GPS watches or teams being able to practice on their home course (what?). The concern is for the future of interscholastic competition within our sport and maintaining an ounce of integrity with regards to fair competition. Do we allow club coaches to recruit/influence his or her athletes from a set area and leave their current school to enroll at a private schools online program?

Doing so, allows them to technically fall under the same umbrella and wear the same jersey on race day. Super-teams are created and can target "weaker" classifications that are already disadvantaged due to low numbers. How is a 1A school with 300 students supposed to even come close to competing against an all-star team that just had 5 of the top athletes in the State transfer to their "school"? It's not just a small school problem though. No matter the number of athletes, or the level of coaching, most schools will never be able to compete against these all-star teams. Just look at CPC blowing out every girls team in the State right now.

My question: Are these teams limited to county all-star teams or could they be also be all-state teams? Could every top athlete in the State enroll in a schools online program and show up from all corners of the State on race day to wear the same jersey? Regardless, the only one's who benefit from this are the club coaches, who have their pockets padded and egos stroked, and the few top tier teams who are more competitive at NXN. Every other program is left behind at no fault of their own.

I agree this isn't the best platform to have the discussion. However, as long as FLRunners wants to continue promoting and praising this team and similar, it certainly should have a place for discussion on these forums. We have many coaches, parents, and fans who are concerned about this issue and want to have a chance to weigh in (beyond empty responses).

Regards,

Justin Taylor
St. Joseph Academy

P.S. Hope everyone stays safe from Hurricane Irma this weekend!
09/05/2017 3:18:20 PM
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How many boys transferred from the same school? Sometimes things are not as they seem.
How many boys transferred from the same school?
Sometimes things are not as they seem.
09/05/2017 3:41:40 PM
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It is common nature for people to pursue the best opportunity their money can buy. In the context of our sport, parents will pursue the best opportunity/school for their kids within their price point. From the parent perspective, they are just doing what is best for their children. If they can explore loopholes in a system…. they will explore loopholes and why should anyone blame them. If as a coach, I lobby to get a student-athlete into the best possible college I can, am I not just doing essentially the same thing…. representing their interest to the best of my ability. The FHSSA does not have the power to level the playing field. Don’t look for them to solve the recruiting/transfer issues. The whole transfer thing is ... parents recognizing the playing field is not even and they also want to gain some competitive advantage. There are a lot of parents out there. For most coaches/teams, transfers in and out of their programs have a negligible effect (to date it has had a zero effect on mine. I have never had a transfer in or out). What the FHSAA COULD DO……to provide some level of equitable opportunity and POSITIVELY EFFECT MANY student-athletes is eliminate participation fees at TITLE 1 schools. That’s within their power. Many of you would be surprised that at high schools in high poverty areas, the participation fee of $50.00 keeps many athletes from participating period. So while having a kid transfer away from my school for a better opportunity would not bother me, (I would even encourage it).... it does bother me that well over 50 % of the kids I coach authentically struggle to find the $50.00 participation fee. Getting more students to PARTICIPATE by eliminating one specific financial barrier (participation fees at Title 1 schools)… that’s an issue I can get on board with … and an issue that could be addressed/solved by the FHSAA. Patrick Douma North Marion High School
It is common nature for people to pursue the best opportunity their money can buy. In the context of our sport, parents will pursue the best opportunity/school for their kids within their price point. From the parent perspective, they are just doing what is best for their children. If they can explore loopholes in a system…. they will explore loopholes and why should anyone blame them. If as a coach, I lobby to get a student-athlete into the best possible college I can, am I not just doing essentially the same thing…. representing their interest to the best of my ability.
The FHSSA does not have the power to level the playing field. Don't look for them to solve the recruiting/transfer issues. The whole transfer thing is ... parents recognizing the playing field is not even and they also want to gain some competitive advantage. There are a lot of parents out there.
For most coaches/teams, transfers in and out of their programs have a negligible effect (to date it has had a zero effect on mine. I have never had a transfer in or out).
What the FHSAA COULD DO……to provide some level of equitable opportunity and POSITIVELY EFFECT MANY student-athletes is eliminate participation fees at TITLE 1 schools. That's within their power. Many of you would be surprised that at high schools in high poverty areas, the participation fee of $50.00 keeps many athletes from participating period. So while having a kid transfer away from my school for a better opportunity would not bother me, (I would even encourage it).... it does bother me that well over 50 % of the kids I coach authentically struggle to find the $50.00 participation fee. Getting more students to PARTICIPATE by eliminating one specific financial barrier (participation fees at Title 1 schools)… that's an issue I can get on board with … and an issue that could be addressed/solved by the FHSAA.

Patrick Douma
North Marion High School
09/05/2017 3:48:02 PM
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I was dismissed from a school and landed at a nearby school, private to public. Nearly 20 kids from that private school team left and went to the public school. I was not involved in them leaving in any way. Their parents were upset at what happened and pulled their kids from the school. They all wanted to stay together and did so. In return the FHSAA deemed them ineligible for the state series the next year for following the coach. I did not say one word about those kids coming to our school, to them or anyone else. It was strictly their choice. So yes, the FHSAA does have a say in the matter. I believe when the smoke clears here there will be more than what some are speculating. Just a hunch.
I was dismissed from a school and landed at a nearby school, private to public. Nearly 20 kids from that private school team left and went to the public school. I was not involved in them leaving in any way. Their parents were upset at what happened and pulled their kids from the school. They all wanted to stay together and did so. In return the FHSAA deemed them ineligible for the state series the next year for following the coach. I did not say one word about those kids coming to our school, to them or anyone else. It was strictly their choice. So yes, the FHSAA does have a say in the matter. I believe when the smoke clears here there will be more than what some are speculating. Just a hunch.
09/05/2017 5:25:58 PM
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@coachbutler Doug - I could be wrong, but I believe if that situation happened now instead of a few years ago, then the kids would be considered eligible from day one. Kids can now follow the coach or follow the club coach so long as the coach does not talk to them about it or encourage it. The FHSAA seems to have lost a lot of authority in preventing anyone from being eligible in recent years.
@coachbutler

Doug - I could be wrong, but I believe if that situation happened now instead of a few years ago, then the kids would be considered eligible from day one. Kids can now follow the coach or follow the club coach so long as the coach does not talk to them about it or encourage it. The FHSAA seems to have lost a lot of authority in preventing anyone from being eligible in recent years.

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