State Meet 3200
04/27/2018 5:50:40 PM
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Anyone know the order the 3200 will be run in at state?
Anyone know the order the 3200 will be run in at state?
04/28/2018 10:10:05 AM
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@altimari @edwardjthompson After reading the coach's participation manual at the end it says "Team Awards Presentation 1. Team awards presentation will be done on a rolling basis. 2. At the conclusion of each final heat of the 1600M Relay, individual awards recipients will be honored on the podium. The respective team runner-up will follow immediately be announced to the podium to receive its trophy followed by the team champion. This process will be followed for each classification starting with the 1A girls then 2A girls and so on. " This implies that running events will be conducted in this order as well. Ed, Can you confirm?
@altimari @edwardjthompson

After reading the coach's participation manual at the end it says

"Team Awards Presentation
1. Team awards presentation will be done on a rolling basis.
2. At the conclusion of each final heat of the 1600M Relay, individual awards recipients will be honored on the podium. The respective team runner-up will follow immediately be announced to the podium to receive its trophy followed by the team champion. This process will be followed for each classification
starting with the 1A girls then 2A girls and so on. "

This implies that running events will be conducted in this order as well.

Ed, Can you confirm?
04/28/2018 10:13:31 AM
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@jlafollette Correct. We are running the same order that we have in the past. It's more efficient from the management perspective. Nobody wants to spend hours moving hurdles back and forth and resetting heights.
@jlafollette Correct. We are running the same order that we have in the past. It's more efficient from the management perspective. Nobody wants to spend hours moving hurdles back and forth and resetting heights.
04/28/2018 10:18:57 AM
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@edwardjthompson Thank you. I think people were curious if the class order would remain the same as in 1,2,3,4 or if it might follow cross country where the order of classes rotates each year at the state finals. As in should the 4A boys always be running the last race on Friday night?
@edwardjthompson

Thank you. I think people were curious if the class order would remain the same as in 1,2,3,4 or if it might follow cross country where the order of classes rotates each year at the state finals. As in should the 4A boys always be running the last race on Friday night?
04/28/2018 10:37:34 AM
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@jlafollette Bring that suggestion to the committee on May 21. I know another suggestion that I've heard in passing is to flip boys and girls year over year like it's done in the NCAA championships. I'd be hesitant to start a rotation of classes with one year left in the cycle especially with the potential for major changes in the classification formula coming. From a management standpoint, I'd prefer to see how that shakes out since much of what we know currently could be turned over (in a more equitable fashion).
@jlafollette Bring that suggestion to the committee on May 21. I know another suggestion that I've heard in passing is to flip boys and girls year over year like it's done in the NCAA championships. I'd be hesitant to start a rotation of classes with one year left in the cycle especially with the potential for major changes in the classification formula coming. From a management standpoint, I'd prefer to see how that shakes out since much of what we know currently could be turned over (in a more equitable fashion).
04/28/2018 12:15:41 PM
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@edwardjthompson WAIT... WHAT.... I'd be hesitant to start a rotation of classes with one year left in the cycle especially with the potential for major changes in the classification formula coming. Well , Now you have my curiosity peaked ! 8-)
@edwardjthompson WAIT... WHAT....
I'd be hesitant to start a rotation of classes with one year left in the cycle especially with the potential for major changes in the classification formula coming.
Well , Now you have my curiosity peaked !
04/28/2018 12:23:47 PM
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All I was looking for was the order. As in 1A-4A Girls followed by 1A-4A boys. I have a boy in 3A 3200 Meter so I’m assuming it’s the 7th race? Starting at 5 pm the 7th heat would be closer to 7 pm.
All I was looking for was the order. As in 1A-4A Girls followed by 1A-4A boys. I have a boy in 3A 3200 Meter so I'm assuming it's the 7th race? Starting at 5 pm the 7th heat would be closer to 7 pm.
04/28/2018 12:27:59 PM
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@plyoman Take a look at the latest AD Advisory minutes. The BOD Operations committee is getting a look tomorrow. I'll present some information to the track committee in May. It's all brainstorming and different ideas being worked on in response to the issues facing Florida...competitive equity, travel, funding, etc.
@plyoman Take a look at the latest AD Advisory minutes. The BOD Operations committee is getting a look tomorrow. I'll present some information to the track committee in May. It's all brainstorming and different ideas being worked on in response to the issues facing Florida...competitive equity, travel, funding, etc.
04/28/2018 1:21:52 PM
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Just read the latest minutes(April 11th) ,and if I read it correctly ,they are kicking around going to 6 classifications and eliminating The District Championship !
Just read the latest minutes(April 11th) ,and if I read it correctly ,they are kicking around going to 6 classifications and eliminating The District Championship !
04/28/2018 1:28:55 PM
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@plyoman Correct. But only for team sports currently. Individual sports like Track, XC, golf, swim, etc. will be examined on an individual basis. Each is unique and presents different paths toward growth in each respective sport. Bottom line is that everything is on the table because the current system is failing. All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.
@plyoman Correct. But only for team sports currently. Individual sports like Track, XC, golf, swim, etc. will be examined on an individual basis. Each is unique and presents different paths toward growth in each respective sport. Bottom line is that everything is on the table because the current system is failing. All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.
04/28/2018 1:39:17 PM
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@edwardjthompson Thank You for pointing me to those minutes. And thank you for taking the time to answer questions for us . It is much appreciated .
@edwardjthompson Thank You for pointing me to those minutes. And thank you for taking the time to answer questions for us . It is much appreciated .
04/30/2018 11:51:16 AM
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@edwardjthompson Ed, Thanks for taking a look at all the issues and thanks for being a regular on the board...fielding questions/comments (good, bad or tangents) promptly. I am a sure all the coaches are very appreciative.
@edwardjthompson

Ed,

Thanks for taking a look at all the issues and thanks for being a regular on the board...fielding questions/comments (good, bad or tangents) promptly. I am a sure all the coaches are very appreciative.
04/30/2018 12:42:22 PM
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@fortmccoyk899 Doing my best to keep folks informed.
@fortmccoyk899 Doing my best to keep folks informed.
04/30/2018 12:43:23 PM
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[quote=edwardjthompson] All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.[/quote] @edwardjthompson Interesting statement. Although you would be hard pressed to argue two things: 1. The larger the pool of student-athletes one has to choose from the greater the chance of success. 2. The more money a school has at it's disposal the greater the chance of success. Neither 1 nor 2 guarantee success, but having more resources definitely makes it easier to compete. So what do you do with something like this: a small school with a limited amount of financial resources focuses all of those available resources on just a handful of sports. For example instead of offering baseball, softball, lacrosse, boys volleyball and water polo in the spring a school JUST offers track and field. Puts them at a heck of an advantage when compared to schools with similar population numbers and limited resources.
dwardjthompson wrote:
All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.


@edwardjthompson

Interesting statement. Although you would be hard pressed to argue two things:

1. The larger the pool of student-athletes one has to choose from the greater the chance of success.

2. The more money a school has at it's disposal the greater the chance of success.

Neither 1 nor 2 guarantee success, but having more resources definitely makes it easier to compete.

So what do you do with something like this: a small school with a limited amount of financial resources focuses all of those available resources on just a handful of sports. For example instead of offering baseball, softball, lacrosse, boys volleyball and water polo in the spring a school JUST offers track and field. Puts them at a heck of an advantage when compared to schools with similar population numbers and limited resources.
04/30/2018 12:49:15 PM
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Or a public school with 1500 students surrounded by schools with over 1000 more students. Higher enrollment definitely raises the odds of better sports programs.
Or a public school with 1500 students surrounded by schools with over 1000 more students. Higher enrollment definitely raises the odds of better sports programs.
04/30/2018 12:55:58 PM
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@Coach_PTS Not arguing against either of those two things except that the numbers don't show it. Now if there's a way to quantify a team's quality (power ranking like in team sports), then that might be more useful in providing a level playing field and helping the aforementioned "disadvantaged" or struggling programs to grow. Hope is the operative word when considering this for the entire state and growing the sport and interscholastic athletics in general.
@Coach_PTS Not arguing against either of those two things except that the numbers don't show it. Now if there's a way to quantify a team's quality (power ranking like in team sports), then that might be more useful in providing a level playing field and helping the aforementioned "disadvantaged" or struggling programs to grow. Hope is the operative word when considering this for the entire state and growing the sport and interscholastic athletics in general.
04/30/2018 2:04:17 PM
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Tricky stuff. So you are suggesting splitting up schools based on their performances? I take it instead of taking just one year to judge a school, maybe a look over the previous 3-5 years to determine a schools current "power ranking" and then classify them based on that? As a practical example in girls soccer St. Johns Country Day has been crushing 1A schools for the better part of 5 years now. They haven't lost a game in like 8 years and are multiple time-defending champions. Other 1A programs have no shot at beating them. Not now, not in the future. So their "power ranking" would have them in the top classification competing against the likes of Lourdes and American Heritage. So then would winning a state title in a lesser classification diminish the achievement?
Tricky stuff.

So you are suggesting splitting up schools based on their performances? I take it instead of taking just one year to judge a school, maybe a look over the previous 3-5 years to determine a schools current "power ranking" and then classify them based on that?

As a practical example in girls soccer St. Johns Country Day has been crushing 1A schools for the better part of 5 years now. They haven't lost a game in like 8 years and are multiple time-defending champions. Other 1A programs have no shot at beating them. Not now, not in the future. So their "power ranking" would have them in the top classification competing against the likes of Lourdes and American Heritage.

So then would winning a state title in a lesser classification diminish the achievement?
04/30/2018 2:10:31 PM
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[quote=edwardjthompson]@plyoman Correct. But only for team sports currently. Individual sports like Track, XC, golf, swim, etc. will be examined on an individual basis. Each is unique and presents different paths toward growth in each respective sport. Bottom line is that everything is on the table because the current system is failing. All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competitiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.[/quote] @edwardjthompson You are correct ED, and I am glad the failure of the present system to provide equity is obvious. Current system of equity is failing because of drum roll........ SCHOOL CHOICE, SCHOOL CHOICE, SCHOOL CHOICE and SCHOOL CHOICE Since this was a political directive, we all know it won't be changing anytime soon, but I am glad to hear the FHSAA is looking at how to make competition more equitable. The result of the slow evolution of school choice, erosion of home schools boundaries, magnet schools, charter schools, and desire of parents to have their kids go to elite academic and athletic programs is resulting in a big power shift ( at least in South Florida). The strong are getting stronger, the weak are getting weaker... In South Florida the ability of small schools to "outcompete" large schools for elite students and elite athletes is prolific, and it is just a matter of time until this is true elsewhere. In the 1990s very few of the top scorers in a Region AA meet would have been competitive in the AAAA bracket. There has been a seismic shift, and now the AA Region would trounce the AAAA region in almost every event. This is due to several factors: A) A couple of Small private schools offering $20,000-30,000 scholarships to promising athletes is part of it... but B) open boundaries which enable select "under enrolleds" public schools to gain an athletic advantage because parents would rather send their kids to a school where the kids get more individual attention. There are a couple of smaller public schools in South Florida that are stockpiling track and field stars who live in up to 3 different counties. One can almost chuckle that the best 4 kids in the entire state can "wind up on the same AA team" despite growing up counties apart (I'll avoid the term recruiting). But this is what Florida voting citizens want. C) Geography has been considered solely over natural competitive balance. Wisdom used to say that competitive balance is cyclical. But that has never been true in the sport of track and field in Florida ..The same geographical regions are more powerful EVERY year. Thus I hope that the proper committee looks to balance as well as geography. Thank you for all that you are doing to open access.. The at large process is a god send, and I am praying for a great meet for all.
dwardjthompson wrote:
@plyoman Correct. But only for team sports currently. Individual sports like Track, XC, golf, swim, etc. will be examined on an individual basis. Each is unique and presents different paths toward growth in each respective sport. Bottom line is that everything is on the table because the current system is failing. All the data shows that school enrollment is not indicative of competitiveness or success. The public v private thing is not either.


@edwardjthompson

You are correct ED, and I am glad the failure of the present system to provide equity is obvious.

Current system of equity is failing because of drum roll........ SCHOOL CHOICE, SCHOOL CHOICE, SCHOOL CHOICE and SCHOOL CHOICE

Since this was a political directive, we all know it won't be changing anytime soon, but I am glad to hear the FHSAA is looking at how to make competition more equitable.

The result of the slow evolution of school choice, erosion of home schools boundaries, magnet schools, charter schools, and desire of parents to have their kids go to elite academic and athletic programs is resulting in a big power shift ( at least in South Florida). The strong are getting stronger, the weak are getting weaker... In South Florida the ability of small schools to "outcompete" large schools for elite students and elite athletes is prolific, and it is just a matter of time until this is true elsewhere.

In the 1990s very few of the top scorers in a Region AA meet would have been competitive in the AAAA bracket. There has been a seismic shift, and now the AA Region would trounce the AAAA region in almost every event.

This is due to several factors:

A) A couple of Small private schools offering $20,000-30,000 scholarships to promising athletes is part of it... but

B) open boundaries which enable select "under enrolleds" public schools to gain an athletic advantage because parents would rather send their kids to a school where the kids get more individual attention. There are a couple of smaller public schools in South Florida that are stockpiling track and field stars who live in up to 3 different counties. One can almost chuckle that the best 4 kids in the entire state can "wind up on the same AA team" despite growing up counties apart (I'll avoid the term recruiting). But this is what Florida voting citizens want.

C) Geography has been considered solely over natural competitive balance. Wisdom used to say that competitive balance is cyclical. But that has never been true in the sport of track and field in Florida ..The same geographical regions are more powerful EVERY year. Thus I hope that the proper committee looks to balance as well as geography.

Thank you for all that you are doing to open access.. The at large process is a god send, and I am praying for a great meet for all.
04/30/2018 2:13:07 PM
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@Coach_PTS Correct on taking a team's avg performances over a period of years. I don't think the achievement is diminished if they've never had an opportunity to grow and achieve anything thus far...they're used to being crushed by the usual suspects. Success at any level shouldn't be downplayed for those kids who've never had the chance to be there.
@Coach_PTS Correct on taking a team's avg performances over a period of years. I don't think the achievement is diminished if they've never had an opportunity to grow and achieve anything thus far...they're used to being crushed by the usual suspects. Success at any level shouldn't be downplayed for those kids who've never had the chance to be there.
04/30/2018 2:19:06 PM
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Mike you are right. Class AA is such a step-up in competition. And the differences really stood out watching 1A run, then 2A at the recent Region 4 meet. Ed you might be on to something. At the very least thinking waaaay outside the box at this point might be the only way to come close to leveling the playing field.
Mike you are right. Class AA is such a step-up in competition. And the differences really stood out watching 1A run, then 2A at the recent Region 4 meet.

Ed you might be on to something. At the very least thinking waaaay outside the box at this point might be the only way to come close to leveling the playing field.

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